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Cozy Coven Chats with Jenny C. Bell
Cozy Coven Chats shares the witch's journey. Jenny C. Bell has been a witch for over three decades and believes it's an empowering path. Jenny seeks to reclaim the word witch as well as the power of the witch's story. Join Jenny in exploring all weird and wonderful of being a witch.
Cozy Coven Chats with Jenny C. Bell
Asa West: The Enchanted Journey: Finding Your Way Through Tarot and Witchcraft
The journey of a witch isn't a straight path—it winds, shifts, and transforms as we discover new tools, insights, and connections. In this soul-stirring conversation, author Asa West opens up about finding magic and meaning through both writing and witchcraft.
Asa shares the pivotal moment of discovering her mother's hidden tarot cards as a teenager, sparking a lifelong relationship with divination that evolved from frustration to fluency. She describes her breakthrough realization that came when she finally pushed the guidebook aside and learned to "read the cards like a comic strip," allowing them to tell their own stories rather than reciting memorized meanings. This approach transformed her practice and offers listeners a refreshing way to connect with their own cards.
We explore the limiting nature of witch labels in modern practice. While social media encourages practitioners to identify strictly as green witches, kitchen witches, or divination witches, Asa suggests a more fluid approach—embracing different aspects of practice as they call to us rather than boxing ourselves into rigid categories. "You can absolutely have a specialty," she explains, "but don't let it define your entire practice or your entire person."
The conversation takes a fascinating turn toward representation in tarot, with Asa recounting a touching reading where a client saw themselves truly reflected in a modern, inclusive deck—something impossible with traditional imagery. This moment highlights how contemporary decks are making spiritual tools more accessible and meaningful for diverse practitioners.
Whether you're new to tarot, questioning your path as a witch, or simply curious about how magic and creativity intertwine, this episode offers wisdom, practical advice, and permission to forge your own unique magical journey. Listen now to discover how embracing fluidity in your practice might unlock deeper connections to your craft.
For the mentioned article on the Last Unicorn: https://reactormag.com/becoming-molly-grue-how-i-found-an-unlikely-millennial-icon-in-the-last-unicorn/
For more on Asa: https://asawestauthor.com/
For more on Jenny: https://www.jennycbell.com/
Hi witches and welcome to another Cozy Coven chat. I'm your host, Jenny C Bell, and today I have the absolute joy of bringing you a conversation with Asa West. She is so knowledgeable and thoughtful in all of her responses, sort of like how I imagined her right. I discovered her when I read Witchblood Rising, which is such a beautiful book. It's Witchblood Rising Awaken Magic in a Modern World. It's a collection of essays and they all have a common thread and they're all so relatable and it's a very vulnerable telling of a witch's journey and you know that's my passion here on this podcast is the witch's journey and she really shares that in this book. So definitely recommend reading this book. Let me give you her official bio.
Speaker 1:Asa West is the author of Witchblood Rising, which we talked about, the Witch's Kin which she talks about in this interview, and it's really I'm going to get it. She really sold me on it. It's really interesting way to look at working with herbal and animal and plant allies in an agnostic way. So that already had me. It's a new kind of way and Five Principles of Green Witchcraft, and her work has appeared in the Offing, joyland, gods and Radicals and other publications.
Speaker 1:She holds an MFA from the Iowa's Writers Workshop and has been covering feminism and media since 2007 under the name Julia Glassman, as a journalist for the Mary Sue and other outlets. She covers everything from Marvel movies to folk horror and, of course, all things witchy. You can find her online at asawestauthorcom and that's A-S-A-W-E-S-T authorcom, and I really recommend checking out her website. She does tarot readings and this conversation took a great tarot turn or tarot if you prefer and we really talked about her journey of discovering her mom's hidden tarot cards in her closet and where she is now reading with more modern decks, and oh, it was beautiful. We could have probably chatted on tarot for hours more, so I hope you enjoy this conversation. I'd like to welcome Asa West to the chat. Asa, if you wouldn't mind briefly introducing yourself for those people that don't already know you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hello, my name is Asa West. I'm a writer, a witch, an artist, various things. Do you want me to talk about the book, or so I will say that that's how I found you.
Speaker 1:I got Witchblood Rising mainly because of the cover, and I know we're not supposed to do that, but I do that and I, you know, I would always tell students when I was an English teacher like it's okay to choose a book by its cover. But then when I opened it up and I saw like the chapter, you had one on the Morrigan or the Morrigan right, and everybody and their mother is asking me all about her all the time and I don't work with her. I haven't. I'm starting to learn about her and so it's like, oh well, obviously I need to read this book. But little did I know that I would identify so strongly with this book. You made me cry a couple times. Now that you know you're a good person, still don't worry about it. You made me cry a couple times. Now that you know you're a good person, still don't worry about it. You made me laugh.
Speaker 1:But there were so many things, even down to your love for Loki, that I was like we are, I felt like a parallel and I really I talked about this a lot. A lot of books on witchcraft are for beginners, and not that a beginner couldn't read this, but this I felt was like a book for witches, like it's written by witch for witches, it's not for people trying to convert them to witchcraft. It felt like our, like our soul calling, like we're all. We can all identify, I believe, with parts of your story, with you know how vulnerable you tell your stories and so, yeah, I would love for you to share a little bit about this one first. And then I know you have another book which I don't have a copy of, but we can also talk about that one too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gosh Well. So Witchblood Rising it is the product of about 10 years of writing, you know, like just kind of like various articles and essays and blog posts and this and that's that had accumulated over the years. That you know. I eventually realized like, oh, there's enough material in here for a book, like that's pretty cool. You know, I've I've been a writer for as long as I've been a witch, right?
Speaker 2:So I think I discovered witchcraft and writing really around the same time in my life, and for me the two have kind of always gone together, you know.
Speaker 2:So, like I go out into the world, I like I see this enchantment in the world, I see this magic, I see these spirits, and the way I process it is I write about it. You know, I go home, I write in my journal, I write a poem, a story. You know they're like this is how I make sense of, of what I encounter in the world, you know, and it's how I, it's how I try to reach out to other people too, right, like we all want connection. We none of us want to be the only person experiencing something, and so when I reach out into the world to see if other people are experiencing what I am, it's through writing, right? So I'll write the story of something that happened to me and then, with any luck, someone out there in the universe will say like yes, like that happened to me too, or that resonates with me, and then I just I feel like okay, good it's you know, it's not just me, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so you've been a witch for how long?
Speaker 2:Because you said witchcraft and kind of writing went together right, yeah, yeah, so high school-ish, um, I think I started writing, you know, kind of like you know, freshman year of high school and the 90s Wicca revival movement I'm not sure what we would even call it that was really swelling up like right around that time, right Like all these movies were coming out, all these shows, like Charmed the Craft, you know, scott Cunning, like all, like all of these authors were, they had been publishing but bookstores were starting to put their books on the shelves again, right for someone like me to stumble in and find them. Um, and so, yeah, it was just kind of this like this interesting moment of my budding passion for art and writing and the written word meeting this cultural moment. That was kind of swelling up all around me and then just both of them kind of linking up together.
Speaker 1:I love that. I uh similar. I was writing in middle school like really bad poetry.
Speaker 2:You know you got to have like the spiral notebook of bad poetry. Like everyone has to have that somewhere somewhere in their closet.
Speaker 1:I have that several. And then, um, yeah, like you, I had a friend in um middle school who was like I'm a witch. I'm like, oh, that's real, yes. And then, yeah, I just kind of went from there. But, yes, I think that's true. That's actually really helpful too for beginner witches, because some of us don't process unless we write it out or talk about it, and so when you're taking in what is new, information like witchcraft, which really feels old but new and familiar, but it's still a lot to process, I love that. It's like we process it through the written word and then it is a way to connect. So, have you had some um, like people reach out or some connections made off of like blog posts or magazine articles and things like that? Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you know the there are many bad things about comment sections, but one of the good things about comment sections is that it's very easy for people to just say like yes, like just to have that moment of connection.
Speaker 2:Like me too, you know, I recently published an essay in Reactor magazine about Molly Grew, the character from the Last Unicorn, and so like, as I, you know, kind of go deeper into middle age. You know, I see more and more of Molly and myself, and every time I watch that movie that scene hits a little harder. Where she, you know, where she meets the unicorn, it's like, how dare you come to me now? You know, nervous, when the, when the essay went up, I was like, oh no, it's just gonna sound like so self indulgent. People are gonna think like, oh, get over yourself. But just the flood of other people saying like yes, yes, like I can't watch that scene in the Last Unicorn without crying, like I feel like I'm Molly Grew too, you know, yeah, those moments of connection are just so magical and, you know, I think the internet, for all of its faults, it makes them a lot easier.
Speaker 1:I love that because I made the mistake of showing the last unicorn to my children when I hadn't seen it. Since I was a child, I have this vivid memory of them both hiding behind the couch and being afraid of the red bull. Oh yeah, um. But then I was like, well, I could turn it off. They're like no, we need to know what happens. And so it was like, and I was like you know what? Welcome to being a child of the 80s.
Speaker 1:All of our movies were completely terrifying. They had moments where you were just like like willie wonka in the boat scene and you were just like, oh my god, like the way, completely scared and that was normal, right, like large march, peewee, that scary fate. It's like there's so much large march, don't. Even so, I was like you know what I I was. It was one of those nights where my husband was working late and I just I always make this mistake. This is like a common thread in my parenting where it's like, yeah, I watched this kid at this child, this movie as a child, it'll be fine, you guys would be fine, like.
Speaker 1:I turned out fine right right, but uh, yeah, so that was a mistake, but you're right, like watching as an adult. I was watching it with them. They were obviously scared of the red bull, but I was feeling like this whole, you know, spiritual journey awakening for the character. And then, um, this has nothing to do with anything but I have to share. I, a couple Christmases ago at Goodwill, I found a last unicorn ornament like original oh my god, 79 cents.
Speaker 1:The girl's like where was this? Like I could totally tell she was mad that she didn't find it, but she was much better than me and I'm like you're not even in, you weren't even alive. This is mine and so it's like my favorite thing that I put on the tree of a year Cause it was like such a cool find. But yeah, I love that and I love you talk a lot about pop culture in Witchblade Rising and I personally really love that because I always kind of I mean, that's how I grew up too. You know, growing up, like I said, in the eighties and nineties it was like all the movies that we grew up there was always like witches and magic and I was like onto that. I latched onto Nancy and the craft, even though she's probably the villain, but for me I was like no, I want to be just like her, you know she's like the villain, but like you feel for her.
Speaker 2:I mean she's like being abused, like she's.
Speaker 1:you know, the cards are stacked against Nancy, like she does, that movie does her dirty. You know, I feel that way, yeah. And that's another one I showed my daughter when she was a teenager and she's like watching it with me and she's like, oh, you know, maybe, like it's like we're in the beginning scenes and she's so positive and she's like, maybe I want to do witchcraft with my friends. This just seems ideal. And then by the end of it she's like, can you walk me in the bathrooms Because I'm afraid Nancy could be in there. I'm like, sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's such a twist, but that's what's sad. That movie was empowering to so many of us, even though I think they were trying to make us afraid of our own power. Really like, as you know, girls, it's like you shouldn't do this stuff because you're going to end up drunk on power and in a mental institution.
Speaker 2:So the moral of the story is like girls, don't, don't band together, Don't do magic, Don't try to improve your life.
Speaker 1:Like yeah, look what happens when you do yeah, okay, and then so Witchblood Rising. I just want to say for everybody, read it because, like you said, it's a collection of essays but it still goes really well together, it flows so well and that I'm sure took some yeah, I'm sure that took some like intense weaving on your part to like take, if you like, 10 years of things and find the thread right and put them together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's so the thread was unexpected to me, you know. When I first started thinking about kind of like collecting everything I had written, I thought like, oh, but it's like it's going to be so disjointed like I write, I write about all this random stuff and I was so relieved and gratified to find that there was kind of this common thread, right, because, like, in some chapters I'm talking about, like California native plants and in other chapters I'm talking about Marvel movies, you know, and I thought like no one's going to want to publish this.
Speaker 2:It's just I'm all over the place. But so I was really relieved when people started saying like, no, no, no, no, no. You can see the through line here. I think there wasn't a lot of weaving involved, even though I love weaving I'm a literal weaver, you know. But there was a lot of cutting involved, you know. So, like when I took my gigantic pile of stuff I'd written, you know, only like I think nine essays made the cut right. Only nine felt like appropriate to be in a book together, and then I wrote a couple new ones to kind of like flesh it out. So yeah, but like it's.
Speaker 2:It's funny, like over like, whether you're a writer or an artist or kind of any other creative person, when you look over your work, even when you feel like you're doing just one random thing after another, you see the pattern after a while. You know like your obsessions start to become apparent as you look over your work. As you look over your work, and it was a fun process for me to see just the themes that I kept coming back to over and over again, because it's something that you see in someone else's work and you assume it's completely intentional. Like, oh, what a genius, like look at how they look, how intentional it was, and they managed to fit it into, like all of these different essays, this common theme that they were building up. But no, often it's completely subconscious, and that's, that's the magic of making stuff, you know.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Yeah, I felt intentional and what I like about it is because on this show I'm very interested in like the witch's journey and I feel like that was one common thread. It was just like a journey of a witch like from, you know, from teenage years to finding your voice, to weaving, to learning about plants. It was like we all go through that and that's something I find personally like frustrating with kind of the modern witchcraft movement is everyone wants to be a type of witch Like, and they get stuck and it's like, no know, like your book really shows, like you explore that's. That's regular, it's normal. Like we go through like I really love crystals for a couple years and I'm gonna obsess over them and now, wait, what's this plant over here? And then now I'm on plants and I feel like that's the natural journey. But if we start labeling ourselves like oh, I'm just this one type of witch, we kind of get cycled. What do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, it's funny. I had never really seen that phenomenon until, like, social media started to take off and then that was when I really started seeing people say, like you know, like, well, I'm a kitchen witch, this is what I do, I'm a divination witch. Well, I'm a kitchen witch, this is what I do, I'm a divination witch. It's funny. I mean, I just mentioned, like Marvel movies, like Agatha, all along, the witchy show it came out last fall and they're each their specific kind of witch, right, like we can't have a coven unless we have the what?
Speaker 2:The protection witch, the divination witch, you know, and it's funny, I don't know where that, I don't know where that impulse comes from exactly, because you're right like it can be really stifling if you get too attached to a label and you start to feel like, well, no, I'm not allowed to do this other thing that's calling to me, because it's not the kind of witch that I am, or it's not the kind of artist that I am, it's not the kind of person that I am, you know.
Speaker 2:Um, and I wonder, like if there's a way to like embrace these labels, but in a more fluid kind of. You know, I almost want to say like, like, like you want to like tag yourself, uh, this or that, that kind of witch, instead of like categorizing yourself, right. So, like well, today I'm working in the kitchen, I'm having fun, fun, cooking Like this is kitchen witchery that I'm doing. You know, maybe tomorrow I've got a tarot appointment with someone. I'm going to be reading their cards, like that's where I'm going to bring out kind of that other part of my, of my personality, you know. But it's such an interesting phenomenon Like this neat, this, really, this impulse that people have to to label themselves.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting too, because I feel like a lot of people are we're trying anyway to move away from, like the gender binary right.
Speaker 1:We're trying to release that there's just one or the other, and that's a rigid structure. And so I feel like there's a lot of release too in like queer community, like trying to release a lot of the labels, like you can be this and that like, and then you know, and then. But at the same time, a lot of, I would say, outliers and outsiders are attracted to witchcraft and then they're holding onto these labels and it's like no, like it's okay, like I know. You feel like maybe you need to do that to justify. I feel like sometimes that's it. It's like, well, I don't know anything about this other type of witchcraft, but I do know this and maybe that's part of it. But yeah, I just feel like I like that, because there's some days I am a kitchen witch and then the next day I'm a green witch and then the next day I'm a crystal witch, like it's not an even moment to moment, right, like within the same day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, and like you can absolutely have a specialty, you know, like this is, this is what I'm really drawn to and this is what I love doing. But, yeah, you can't let it like start to just define your entire practice, your entire person, right? Like you have to give yourself permission to branch out and to try other things, and like you definitely have to give yourself permission to maybe move on from something if it's not quite what you are anymore. And I feel like there's a lot of fear around that. Like there's a lot of fear of like losing our personalities, right, like, oh no, but I've defined myself as this, I can't let go of that.
Speaker 2:And I think there's a lot of fear a lot of rightful fear around being judged by other people, like you know well you said that you were a crystal witch and now it's been six months since you've talked about crystals and like have been a fake all along. You know, I mean here's. Here. We get into the bad parts of the internet, right, the bad parts of the comment section, like people are very quick to to judge and to jump to conclusions about people when we're all evolving and changing all the time, like it's perfectly normal yeah, and I even think, like sometimes I'll use the term witchy and people seem to like that more because they don't even want to maybe take that label, like it's like I'll do.
Speaker 1:They want to do witchy things but they don't want to say like I'm, they don't want to commit to it, and I get that and it's kind of the opposite end of the spectrum. It's like I don't want to commit to a label, right, and that's okay because you're right, it's all all the journey, it's all the evolution. Like if, if I was a witch, I was at 13, I, that'd be sad.
Speaker 2:I got it. I shudder to think what I would be like if I was, if I was the same kind of witch that I was way back then, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like cause I was Wiccan, because that's all I could find.
Speaker 1:It's all I know about. Yeah, we were all limited to what the bookstores carried, right. And so I feel like we all read Scott Cunningham and Raven Silver, ravenwolf, and that was like. And then I discovered, like Italian witchcraft with Raven Grimasi, and I was like, oh well, this is different. Because I'm Italian, I was like maybe I want to do this, but yeah, it was whatever books you could afford, because we were like kids and then I would swap with my friend and you know, it's kind of whatever you were limited to. And so, yeah, now we have a lot of information that could be part of the labeling. It's like there's such a vast amount of information, they can all kind of narrow it down. I don't know. I want to know a little bit about the Witch's Kin. If you could tell us about that book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, so yeah, I don't have a copy with me. You can see I'm surrounded by boxes. We're getting ready to move, so more and more of my stuff is getting packed away as we approach the moving date and it terrifies me. But yeah so. The Witch's Kin it came out last year from Retona Press. It is a book about kind of forming and deepening your relationship with all of the beings around you, whether they're human or plant or animal or spirit. It's a very agnostic book, meaning that, like you don't have to believe in, like literal spirits you don't have to believe in, you know, gods as invisible people who are sitting next to you. In order to hopefully get something out of the book, it's all about establishing connections with the, the, the scene and the unseen world around you and forming kinship with them. Um, in a you know, in a way that doesn't force you to believe anything. That's kind of my. I think I need to work on my elevator pitch.
Speaker 1:I like that because you know when you, when people talk about like the spirit of plants or whatever, it automatically sounds animist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so animism is a huge part, is a huge part of that book. Animism, you know, that is like the belief, or the worldview or the mindset, however you want to, you know, conceptualize it that everything is in soul, everything is part of the divine and everything has consciousness and agency, even if it doesn't look exactly like a human brain. You know, in the case of, like plants and animals, this is actually backed up by science, right, like more and more and more science is showing that, like you know, like octopuses are as smart as dogs. Right, like these are intelligent animals. Plants have senses and they can even do rudimentary, uh kind of like cognitive tasks. Right, like plants can count. Plants can keep time. Plants are way more conscious than we previously thought.
Speaker 2:Um, which is scary if you have a garden, because when you have to go weeding you're like, oh no, right, it's fraught, you know. And then, in other realms of our practice, like establishing relationships with gods and spirits, it's purely a matter of faith, right, like I'm gonna conduct a ritual, I'm gonna put together an altar, just on pure faith that there's something out there that's gonna respond to me and something out there that I can form a connection with, and that is going to be, that's the form of connection that's going to be mutually beneficial to me and whoever or whatever I am connecting to, you know, whether it's like a literal someone out there or whether it's just an aspect of my own mind that I'm, that I'm kind of nurturing. The book just kind of like, takes the premise that, like whatever is going on when we do sacred ritual, like it's worth it.
Speaker 1:So I love that, because you're not giving the answer.
Speaker 2:Exactly, there is no answer. You know, if there was an answer, we would have found it by now. Right Like there, there's no answer, and that's what makes spiritual practice so beautiful and so important. It's like that's why they literally call it a mystery. Right Like you're stepping into this mystery and you're embracing it, um, and your life is bettered by knowing that it's a mystery and knowing that you're never going to know what exactly it is you're doing, but you know that it's important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that approach Because it's it's hard sometimes to read a book by like a witch or pagan and they're just saying for certain, like this is how it is and this is, and it's like you don't know that, like I'm sorry, but you don't know that, right, unless you know you really feel like a deep, maybe channeled, connection or something. But you need to also say that that's how you know that, right, instead of being like I know this from all this research. I know this because they talk directly to me, right? However you want to justify. But I love that because it's like people do miss out sometimes on the connection with plants or animals or crystals or whatever, because they're worried about, like am I doing it right? Who am I connecting to? How is this working? Is there any out there? Right? Like, do I have to pray to a certain God or elemental? It's like they get caught up in all the little details and then they don't get to enjoy the process, right exactly.
Speaker 2:I feel like there's kind of two extremes that we can fall into, and I think everyone falls into this to some extent. It's everyone. You either get tripped up with self-doubt, you know like, well, why am I doing this? There's no point to this, it's not real, I'm just imagining it. You know, the my friend from whatever, from school was right when they told me that I'm just, you know, playing pretend, yeah. But then on the opposite extreme, we can get caught up in superstition, right, like oh, I have to do it the exact right way, or I'm going to get struck by lightning, like oh, I have to do it the exact right way, or I'm going to get struck by lightning, you know Right, and I think it's just natural to kind of zigzag between those two extremes a little bit until you find that center.
Speaker 1:You know that's. Yeah, I agree 100%. That's exactly. I work a lot with beginner witches and I see those extremes. You know it's like a lot of. Am I doing it right? I don't know if I'm doing it right. Well, it's like, well, if you stop thinking, you might feel that you're doing it right, right, once you release that and then, yeah, then it's like, well, the book said to do it this way, okay, but you can try a different way, right? I often say like, if it doesn't feel right to you, maybe find a different way to do it right, because it's like, just because one witch says this doesn't mean how do they know?
Speaker 2:you know exactly it works for them and they're sharing what they can what worked best for them right yeah, exactly yeah, and there's also like a middle path a middle ground between, like you know, deciding like, well, if, well, everything is real and nothing is real, so I'm just going to do whatever I want, right.
Speaker 2:And you know, kind of like going to the, to the very dogmatic approach, like, well, there's only one way to do it and it has to be this one way, like, no, you can find a middle ground between that too, right, like, you can have spiritual discipline, you can have respect for tradition, can have spiritual discipline, you can have respect for tradition. You know, you can be curious about like, okay, well, if a lot of people are saying to do it this way, well, clearly, well, why, why are they saying to do it that way? Like is it? Is there something there that's really worth doing? You know, yeah, you can find that middle ground between creativity and reinvention and respect for the knowledge that has come before you, right, it always has to have that give and take.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny we keep circling back to kind of a middle ground right, right Everything is the middle ground.
Speaker 2:But I love your kitty poking over your shoulder.
Speaker 1:He is like so mad his ribbon is sitting here. He's like why are we not playing right now? Why are you talking to this fake cat or whatever? Um, so yeah, he's. He's protesting in his own way. Um, I would love to know about your journey with tarot. I was doing some poking your website and I see you read tarot for people and I also read about you finding your mom's tarot cards like in the her closet right.
Speaker 2:Yes. So, um, I, you know I don't talk about this part of this before, but when I was young, um, I had this bad habit of like rooting through my mom's old things just because they were very interesting. You know, like how dare she keep such interesting things in her closet and then like get mad when I'm going to rifle through them. And now my kid does the same thing to my stuff, like she goes through my stuff. I'm like don't do that. But also I know exactly why you're doing that, you know. But yeah, one day when I was in high school, I found this old deck of tarot cards in my mom's things and it turned out that, like back in the late 60s, early 70s, when she she grew up in New York, and so at some bookstore in New York whether it was like in the East Village or White Plains, I don't know Um, she bought herself like a deck of tarot cards in a book, you know. And when I asked her, like what were you going to do with these?
Speaker 2:It's kind of a stupid question, but you know, she said like, well, I was going to learn to read them, Right? Um, and it was funny.
Speaker 2:It was this moment where I realized like, oh my mom is just, was just like any other 20 year old, you know, like, just, she sees something in a bookstore and she's like, ah, that could be a lark, you know that could be fun, and she buys them. Um, but so I found those cards right when I was discovering tarot, right where I went, just I was discovering like there's this really beautiful, very cool thing that people can do, right, like they're not quite playing cards, they're not quite art cards, and also they tell the future, like this is pretty awesome. The books on Wicca that I was starting to amass, right, they all had a section on tarot, they all had like the little one line kind of card meetings, and so that was the beginning of my tarot journey. I would love to report that like, oh, it was so easy to learn, like the cards, just as the minor arcana. So, instead of like a picture of a person you know holding some swords, let's say the two of swords, right In the Smith Waite, it's a blindfolded woman blocking herself with swords. Um, in a marseille deck, the two of swords is just two swords side by side, that's it no person, no narrative, nothing. And so they can be pretty hard to read, and so my mistake as a young tarot reader was diving right into the marseille deck when there was no guidance on, like how to read that kind of deck.
Speaker 2:And so I had this really frustrating time in high school, you know like look at, like flipping through the guidebooks and like trying to make sense of it, but like just nothing. The readings didn't make any sense, right, Because I just was not really doing it the way the cards wanted to be read. And so for the first few years of my life as a tarot reader, I would try to read a deck and it wouldn't really work and I'd put it away. I'd buy a new deck, I'd try to read with that one still wouldn't really make sense, you know, cause I was just reading what the guidebook said. I was not interpreting the cards myself. Um, but then finally, many, many years later, when I found my mom's old deck and I found like a you know another deck and I bought a Smith Waite, finally I finally sat down and I kind of pushed the guidebook away. I think I literally like kind of pushed it away.
Speaker 2:I have maybe I'm making this memory up, but that's what I seem to remember doing and I laid out some cards and I just started reading them, kind of as if they were a comic strip, Right? So, like in the first card, this person is doing this thing. In the second card, oh, another character shows up and they're doing this to the first person in the third card. Oh, wait a minute, maybe the first person changed costumes and now they're doing something else, right? And I just remember that night when I was like, wait a minute, maybe this is how you do it.
Speaker 2:You know you don't read the, you know the blurb in the guidebook verbatim, and then just spout and then just regurgitate that you actually see what's happening on the card and you let the card tell you a story. And then, sure enough, when I started reading more widely like how to read tarot, including Marseilles decks, which they have again, they have their own style I started to learn like, yeah, like, actually, actually, this is how a lot of people do it. You know that's you. Just you see what story the cards are telling you and you tell that story and then it ends you. It ends up being a little allegory, that kind of gives you guidance for your own problem or answers the question that you had.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I remember that night so well. It was just that breakthrough for me when I realized, like, oh, you don't, you don't just have to do what the books say, like you can actually just let the cards speak to you directly, you know. And after that I was able to like reintegrate, like what the book said, right, Like, oh yeah, there's a, you know, there's this numerology stuff, there's these astrological elements, there's this. If you read this book, this author noticed something in this card which I never noticed. That's actually super useful. It was this process of just integrating, kind of everything that was available to me.
Speaker 1:So how did you apply that back to the original deck that was your mom's? Because you're talking about like seeing it as a comic strip, but then when someone's looking at, just like two swords on a card how does that?
Speaker 2:read that more about the Marseille is that there's kind of this cross-referencing system you can use, right? So when it comes to the pip cards, the four suits each mean something and you can use an established meaning or you can use your own meaning.
Speaker 2:It's up to you, but you decide ahead of time like, okay, the swords mean conflict, right, I'm just going to decide that that's what they mean. The hearts mean relationships and love and emotions. Right, like you can decide that ahead of time. And then the numbers each mean something. So one means unity. Five means the introduction of a new element, right. Seven means, I don't know, a sacred journey. Right, like you kind of decide ahead of time. And so then when you pull, for example, like the seven of hearts or the seven of cups rather, in the Marseille, you have already decided before you pulled the card. Okay, well, cups mean love and relationships. Seven means a journey. This is a journey of love, you know. And so, even if it just has six cups on it, now you know what that card means.
Speaker 2:Um, and you didn't have to memorize 78 separate. You know completely unrelated card meetings because you have this little system in place. So that was what I learned about how to read, like pip cards. What's also fun is that you can, like you know, if you have like a card with two swords on it, if, for example, you know there's like a character on each side, like, let's say, I don't know the fool, and um, uh, the king of the king of cups and then in between them are two swords. You can decide like, oh, they're each going to take a sword and they're going to fight with each other, right? So it's very open to to, uh, to interpretation, to like just these kind of spontaneous meanings. Um, it's very flexible and like it's very open to just you know, like what, like what do you literally see in front of you that can, that you can use in your storytelling, so you can have a lot of fun with it.
Speaker 1:I love that. I had a similar journey where I just tried to memorize the books and I even went ahead and like got my universal waitsmith writer, waitsmith deck and then I got two books from Llewellyn.
Speaker 1:one was on card spreads and one was on like deeper meaning of the book, because you said the little paper book it was like a yeah, and it was crippling actually because then like turn the card over and be like wait a minute and then, flipping the book, read all this stuff and I just it wasn't ever clicking for me until I did exactly what you talked about, which was like what am I actually seeing in front of me? Right, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, am I reading the cards or am I reading the guidebook? You know, and when you get to the point where you're just reading the guidebook and like, the cards might as well not even be there that's when you got to change your tactic.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, and like you said too, it tells a story. So that's such a good example about the fool and the king and the two swords. There's a story. Or I like how you talked about the comic strip, because it's meant to be a storyteller. Right, it's meant to be told. You know they're not in isolation. And with the book, if you keep going back to the book, everything's in isolation and you can't make the connection of the stories if you're only using the guidebook.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:And the cards. They're always going to have an effect on each other. This is actually what I really like about the Lenormand. I don't know as much about Lenormand as I do about tarot, but with the Lenormand there's this system that people have developed where, like, one card will kind of exalt or diminish the card next to it, depending on, like, how they're situated right. So if you have a diminishing card next to I don't know, let's say like the moon card, right, the moon will be diminished by that card, and so that's a cool system. Again, I don't know as much about that system as I do about tarot, but when you let the cards talk to each other, all sorts of just really cool things start to happen.
Speaker 1:So when you read, do you mix card decks, like do you bring up a few or do you just stick with one deck, or I have in the past.
Speaker 2:It's really fun. I don't know why I don't do it more often. To be honest, usually I'll just read with one deck, but when I do, when it does occur to me to like, pull out a few decks and mix and, you know, start mixing them up.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of fun mix and, you know, start mixing them up. Um, it's a lot of fun. Yeah, because the lenormand is also new to me and the way I've been using it is like with my tarot, because I'm like this, I do, so let me put them. Let's like put it all together, and so it's helping me understand those symbols better, because, in isolation.
Speaker 1:I like I got the card deck, I put it it down. I'm like, okay, like it's just, and I was trying to like put them together, but there was also numbers and I'm like there's got to be more. I'm missing something here, because it can't just be the simple picture it's got to be. There's got to be deeper meaning that I'm just not connecting with. So I started using them with tarot and I'm like oh, I, this, this makes a lot more sense.
Speaker 2:So I started using them with tarot and I'm like, oh I, this, this makes a lot more sense. Well, what's funny is that I found that I always have a Lenormand deck with me when I read for clients or when I read like at events or something, because I find that, like the Lenormand and playing cards are good for like really like kind of fast, practical questions, right, like you know. So like, how do I find a new job? Like I don't, I don't care about my spiritual journey right now, I don't need any deeper meaning, I don't need my life's purpose, I just the you know, the rent is due and I need a new job. So how do I find a new job? I found that, like the Lenormand is really good at just like bam, bam, bam. Yeah, you know, do XYZ, you know, do X Y Z right, they're very they're very practical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that. I have a few like Oracle card decks that are like that too, where it's like one of them is just it. Basically it's like an eight ball. But so it's like yes, no, unclear kind of thing. And so someone does have a question, because, you know, usually we say no, yes or no questions but, we just a lot of times like as a reader, like do you really want me to tell you the answer? Because I feel like you don't sometimes I will actually ask clients.
Speaker 2:You know it's a tricky situation. So I only ask if I feel like it's going to go well. Um, yeah, I'll ask them like, what are you going to do if you don't get the answer you want? Like I can tell by your question that there's an answer you want. So tell me ahead of time what you're going to do if you don't get that answer. And you know, sometimes if they're like oh, I hadn't thought about that and I'm like then you don't want this question answered right now. You know, but again, it's tricky, that's a very tricky situation.
Speaker 1:I you really have to feel out who you're working with before you can, before you can confront them with something like that, you know, yeah, well, it's questions like about relationships, that when I'm always like, do you really want to know if you should divorce your husband, or do you already know the answer? Yeah, right, like are you?
Speaker 1:just having me validate what you already think, and usually that's what the cards will show. It's a validation. I already know, asking me that question, that you do in fact want to divorce your husband, but you just need someone else to be like yeah girl, I'll get it, you know, it's like are you looking for guidance?
Speaker 2:or are you looking for permission, because I'll give you permission for free, like, yeah, I don't want to have to pull the cards for that.
Speaker 1:So then it's a lot of times it's like, well, if I can give you validation, I can give you timing, because I think sometimes that's another thing they want is like, yeah, I want to do this, but do I want to do this right now? Or same with, like leaving a job. I'm always hesitant because it's like, well, I'm not going to tell you to stop making money, like, right, so instead let's talk about other options and maybe when you should look for another job and those kinds of things. But I'm not going to say straight up yeah, stop making money, do that?
Speaker 2:Right, like it'll all work out, it'll be fun, you know, yeah, no, with really loaded questions like that, there's always a little voice in the back of my mind Like, am I going to get served with a lawsuit if I? If give them bad advice? Like no one wants that you know yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, the thing is is like I feel like the advice is always true, but it's like, do they want the truth? And that's where sometimes I hesitate. You know, like I have certain tarot decks that I only use for myself and friends because they're harsh. There's something about them the way they read where they're just like slapping you in the artwork, the way they read where they're just like slapping you in the face time and time again, and I won't use them for like a client because I'm like nobody, we're not. We're not that close where I can just give you a slap down like we're gonna. I'm gonna use the softer gentler maybe, kind of things, instead of the harsh kind of decks.
Speaker 2:I don't know yeah, I had the. I definitely had those decks too. It's funny, the Ussi, pagan, otherworlds, tarot. I don't know if you've seen that deck. It is one of oh, it's one of the most beautiful decks out there. It is so gorgeous. It's got these like a Renaissance style paintings that are. They're so beautiful that, like it's, I had to double check to see if they were to make sure that they had been drawn, painted by, like a modern artist, rather than unearthed from some vault. I mean, they're beautiful, uh, but that deck is harsh like. When I use that deck, the answer takes two seconds and it is, uh, not always kind, you know yeah, I have a deck, uh, based on the Kabbalah.
Speaker 1:It was like oh, yeah, it was a small batch that was made and I happened to get a copy and whenever that comes out, it's like it's like so, Kabbalah. It's just like yeah, so you're doing this and you shouldn't be doing this. And it's like so clear, it's never ambiguous and it can be kind of harsh if you weren't really wanting that truth. So I have to like save that for when, like okay, tell me, tell me what's really going on. And then that card will always give you like two seconds, like you said, yeah, yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you have a couple of favorite card decks? Or and then second question, do you recommend a certain deck for beginners?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, so it's so funny when I read tarot in, like college. You know, high school and college, again the rocky years, right. The only version of the Smith weight that I knew of was that the one with like the very, very bright colors, right, like the backgrounds are like bright yellow, bright powder blue, you, just because that's the way they were printed. You know, um, and so I always I was, I was always kind of turned off by this, by the smith weight back then known as the rider weight, even though I knew it was like the deck to have. I just never, never spoke to me, um, but then I eventually got the reprinting. I can't remember what the what it's called, but it's the reprinting where they kind of tone down the colors.
Speaker 1:It's the universal, the universal.
Speaker 2:I mean, I have it right here, it's the the. The backs look like this.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I don't have that one, but so I have one. It's the universal Rider-Waite-Smith and all the colors. Can I see the front of your card? Yeah, yeah. So this is the.
Speaker 2:This is what the colors look like on this one. Still very kind of like graphic arts looking lights a little better here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so mine's more pastel, pastel y yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So I learned that, like, the original paintings were all lost, so no one actually knows what color Pamela Coleman Smith, like, actually painted these, um, or if she painted them at all. Maybe they were just line art, I don't know. That's what I've heard, that's what I've read, that like they, just no one knows where the original art is. So that's why we get all these reprints with different colors. It's kind of like no one knows but, um, but anyway. So I got a deck with just that the colors were toned down a little bit, um, and I started reading it and, like, that's when I really started to appreciate, like, really the genius of the artwork, you know.
Speaker 2:So, again, pamela coleman smith, uh, she was an artist and an illustrator. Um, she was involved in the order of the golden dawn with arthur waite, who you know, kind of like commissioned the deck from her and, um, my understanding is that, like, kind of like her drawings responded to his what he wanted in the cards, but she, still, you can see her creativity and her, uh, kind of her stamp on every card. Right, it's definitely her artwork, um, and I started to appreciate, just like how much detail uh, there is in these cards, right, so like I'll just pull another, you know, like a random one, so glad I happen to have this here uh you know.
Speaker 2:So, like the ten of wands, right, uh, a figure is kind of like trying to carry this, this big bundle of staffs, um, you can see in his body language he's like he's having a hard time keeping it all together, but he's still pushing forward. You know he's not giving up this. You know the staffs, like, they look like they're on the verge of collapse, but he is man, he or they. You know, I I'm trying to get out of the habit of gendering the cards. You know, like they're. They haven't dropped them yet, right? Or, if they have, they've picked them back up, um, and then you can see the destination in the background, right, like, but then does, does this person want to be taking them there? Like, are they going to feel relieved when they get these staffs there, or are they going to feel like, okay, well, I've delivered it.
Speaker 2:Now I got to go back for more, right, like these cards, they just they invite so much storytelling and the way one person reads what's going on on this, on this card, could be completely different from what another person reads, you know, um, and so that caught, that deck became my favorite deck to read with, like, whenever I read, uh, no matter how, how many decks I bring with me, I always bring my smithwaite with me. Know, always, always, always, um. Whenever I read for myself, like nine times out of 10, I'm using Smith weight, so that's my very favorite deck, um another, definitely inner one too, right, wouldn't you say?
Speaker 1:that's a good beginner deck.
Speaker 2:Because, definitely, yes, if you begin with any deck, like, start with a Smith weight, because not only are the cards, uh, not only do they lend themselves, uh, to interpretation so easily, um, but they're the symbolism on the cards and the like, the tropes that show up are the basis of, you know, most other decks out there, right? So, like the famous three of swords, with the three swords penetrating the heart, you're to see that symbol show up everywhere in tarot. And it's thanks to, you know, it's thanks to Coleman Smith, like, it's thanks to her artwork, yeah, so that's my favorite deck to read with. There's another deck. It's currently at my work right now I have to keep a deck at work. It's currently at my work. Right now I have to keep a deck at work. You know, um, it's the fifth spirit, uh, tarot, by, uh, charlie claire burgess, um, and it's a modern, queer, uh kind of alternative deck. What's amazing is that burgess said that, uh, they learned to draw in order to make this deck. But, like you, I, I have a hard time believing it, because the art is so good. You're telling me you never drew before. Come on, come on, dude, I don't know, but you know, the art is wonderful. Um, it's so vibrant and colorful. Um, and I had this really magical experience when I was reading at a, like a birthday party where, like again, like Bird, just like, drew every figure on the cards with like different genders, different body types, different you know, like just different, different ways of looking.
Speaker 2:And I was reading for a trans woman and I put a card down and she didn't seem to think much of it. She was just like I was like you know well, okay, this was like you know well, okay, this is you on the card and this is what you need to do usual reading. And she goes god, that's so funny because, like, the card even looks like me. And I was like I know right, that's the magic of tarot. But in my mind I was thinking like this would never happen with a more heteronormative deck, like we would never get to have that moment where someone who, you know, doesn't have like this very, very rigidly defined body type, sees the card that represents her and just casually thinks like, oh God, it even looks like me.
Speaker 1:Okay cards.
Speaker 2:I get it, you know. It was just such a beautiful moment. So yeah, fifth spirit tarot deck. Beautiful, beautiful deck.
Speaker 1:I love that, yeah, I've. I. I'm amazed at all of the new interpretations that are coming out because, exactly what you said, you know, these the uh, the traditional, like Rider Waite, smith, it's a standby but it's pretty limited, like everyone is kind of one body type, right, and everybody is. They're usually illustrated where everybody's white. So, you know, it's like it's pretty limiting and, you're right, a lot of people don't see themselves. I had something similar happen. I have. I can't remember. I was trying to remember the name of the deck but it has a lot of different body sizes, and I pulled the card and my the person was like wow, like they even have my body shape, like they were so amazed like that they could see themselves in the card. And, you're right, that wouldn't have happened, like 20 years ago, right, yeah, you just couldn't see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you would just have. You just have to tell people like OK, well, this represents you. You'll just have to trust me on this, right, they don't you know, they can't have that like visceral reaction of like wow, that's me in the card. Okay, I better take this reading seriously, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for our conversation today. You're my first guest to really deep dive into tarot with me, which is such a pleasure, is I could talk about for probably far too long, and so same here. I didn't talk about it all day. Me too. It's um, I don't know. I get excited when someone's like, yeah, I read tarot and I'm like, oh, you do. I'm like, what's your favorite deck? I just have to know, because it's like I don't know. I think more and more people kind of go to Oracle cards and so I get excited when someone is and nothing wrong with that, I read those too. But I get excited when someone's really deep diving into tarot. Um, I would love to know if you have any little tips or advice, um, before we leave today for people listening on maybe tarot or starting the tarot journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, um, if you're just starting out with tarot and you don't quite know where to start, first step is to get a deck, right? You know, obviously, once you get your deck, I've got mine right here, go ahead and shuffle it. You know, the cards are all going to come in order, right? So you want to kind of like get them out of order first and then just go ahead and select like one card. Right, you can just pull it at random. What card did I get? Oh, um, I got a kind of like a, not nice card.
Speaker 1:So, since this isn't a, real reading.
Speaker 2:I can just pull like a happier one, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is a good one all right, yeah, no, I don't need that right now. Okay, so yeah, here we go. You know the nine of pentacles, right. Once you have this card out, go ahead and, just like, take a look at it, notice what is happening on the card, right? Who is the character? What are they doing, what are they holding, what are they wearing, what are their surroundings? Right, like, what are, what are they surrounded by? You know, and after you've had like a you know, after you had a minute to kind of just like form a little story it doesn't have to be a real person in your life Like, this is just, this is fiction, right, this is you telling a story about whoever you see on the card.
Speaker 2:You know, take a notebook and a pencil, maybe your diary, you know, maybe just like a piece of scratch paper, whatever, and just write a little story about what's happening on the card, right, so you know this person. She is the I don't know. She's the royal falconer, right, she's standing in the castle courtyard. She's just brought her falcon out. Here's this little bird, right here. She's just brought her falcon out. You know, for the first time, for the first time this morning it's seven in the morning, the sun has just risen, she's about to take off the hood and let the Falcon fly free for the first time today, um, and maybe on her mind she is thinking about, and then you can go off. You can make step up. It's fine.
Speaker 2:You know, maybe who is off camera in the card, right? Who is surrounding this person? Is there anyone else there that we can't see? Have fun with it, right, tell a story. It can be a page long, it could be 10 pages long, but that's the art of tarot, right there? Right Is you look at the card and you just start telling a story based on what's happening to the card.
Speaker 2:And you just start telling a story based on what's happening to the card and as you grow more adept at it, as like this starts to come easier to you, the stories will start to become allegories, right? So when you ask the cards like how do I find new love? Right, I'm lonely. How do I find someone, a card like this may come up and you may realize, like, oh, like, I'm the falconer, but I haven't sent out my falcon yet. I need to, I need to let that bird fly in order to bring someone back to me, you know, and that could mean whatever it means in your life, but that's the first step. Pick a card and tell a story about it. Make something up fiction, just have fun with it.
Speaker 1:That is beautiful advice and I think not just for beginners. You know, if someone like we talked about has had their decks for years and is still trying to go back to the book, you know, and they're stuck in that cycle. This is a way to break out of that cycle and to introduce them into like really listening to their own ideas and seeing the deck for themselves. Right, right, yeah, absolutely Well, thank you so much. This has been a great chat and I appreciate your time and your energy and your thoughtfulness and I feel like all these little tarot tips are going to help listeners for sure. So thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening or watching. I really appreciate your time, your energy. I hope this conversation inspires you to look at your tarot cards in a different way, or to pick them up if you put them aside because they were too hard, to pick them back up and try in the method that Asa shared with us. She gave us a lot of great tips for tarot and so definitely check that out. Her website, once again, is Asa West Author, which is asawestauthorcom. You can find her on Instagram at the Red Tail Witch, like the hawk, the Red Tail Hawk, the Red Tail Witch, and yeah, I hope you really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:This was I tried not to fangirl, so I've been fortunate enough to have these guests on whose books I've read and whose work I really admire and I try to like be cool, you know, and I think my enthusiasm comes through and hopefully not too wild of enthusiasm, please. If you haven't already liked or subscribed to the podcast, I greatly appreciate it. I'd also appreciate a review, too, if you're listening and streaming it where you listen. So thank you again and, yeah, let's go open those tarot cards and write a story about them.
